Saving Throws and Proficiencies

Okay, I lied. I actually have a few additional posts to share with you. Today I want to consider the rules for Saving Throws, Weapon Proficiencies, Armour Proficiencies and Shield Proficiencies. These new rules are designed to make multiclassing flow a little more easily in the game. I think these changes are entirely fair. Let’s see what you think.

Saving Throws

Third edition uses the same saving throw table for all core classes and all prestige classes. I’m sure you’re very familiar with it, but let’s take a quick look for old times sake:

Level	Good Save	Poor Save
1	+2	+0
2	+3	+0
3	+3	+1
4	+4	+1
5	+4	+1
6	+5	+2
7	+5	+2
8	+6	+2
9	+6	+3
10	+7	+3
11	+7	+3
12	+8	+4
13	+8	+4
14	+9	+4
15	+9	+5
16	+10	+5
17	+10	+5
18	+11	+6
19	+11	+6
20	+12	+6

The standard third edition table gives character a +2 bump in their good saving throws at first level. Arguably, if it wasn’t for this small advantage the character wouldn’t be able to hold his own in the game world. A fighter without +2 in Fortitude at 1st level wouldn’t be the robust powerhouse of the party (in relative terms, of course).

The problem comes when a player multiclasses into lots of different classes that give him the same 1st level bump to the same saving throw. A 4th level character who has 1 level in fighter, 1 level in paladin, 1 level in cleric, 1 level in monk has a +8 base fortitude saving throw, and +2 in Reflex and Will. It’s an extreme example, but extrapolated over a number of levels you have the problem that a character can be almost certain to succeed at one saving throw, and almost certain to fail the other two.

To be honest, as long as you allow multiclassing there’s not much you can do about this except to try and put it off for as many levels as possible. And that’s what Pathfinder does. It keeps the original third edition saving throw table for the core classes, but when it comes to prestige classes it uses a completely different one:

Level	Good Save	Poor Save
1	+1	+0
2	+1	+1
3	+2	+1
4	+2	+1
5	+3	+2
6	+3	+2
7	+4	+2
8	+4	+3
9	+5	+3
10	+5	+3

It’s quite a difference isn’t it? The Poor Save for prestige classes is slightly improved, but the Good Save is significantly less… well, Good, than it used to be. You can see why they’ve done this. Pathfinder has taken out the XP penalty for monstrously multiclassed characters, so they’ve found other ways to penalise such builds. Players who take on too many prestige classes will find themselves with lower saving throws than someone who only has one class.

The trouble is that I don’t think this is a very good solution. In my experience, the main problem with multiclassing doesn’t come from a character taking on an insane number of prestige classes: it comes from taking levels in multiple core classes. And these rules do nothing to stop that. In fact by making the saving throw progression of prestige classes unattractive, they encourage more multiclassing between core classes.

Let’s look for a second at dear old Elias Raithbourne. I keep trotting him out as an example of an overclassed character – but to be fair this choice of classes perfectly reflects how Marc has played him over the years, and I have no problem at all with his choices. Anyway, Elias is currently a (deep breath!) Sorcerer 1, Fighter 2, Rogue 2, Paladin 5, Pious Templar 4, Glorious Servitor 3. He has four core classes and two prestige classes. These rules aren’t as harsh on him as Pathfinder probably intended.

So here’s my compromise. It’s a new saving throw table that is the same for Core Classes and for Prestige Classes. It walks the middle line between the original saving throw table, and the new Pathfinder one. It makes all multiclassing equal. Here it is:

Level	Good Save	Poor Save
1	+1	+0
2	+2	+0
3	+2	+1
4	+3	+1
5	+3	+1
6	+4	+2
7	+4	+2
8	+5	+2
9	+5	+3
10	+6	+3
11	+6	+3
12	+7	+4
13	+7	+4
14	+8	+4
15	+8	+5
16	+9	+5
17	+9	+5
18	+10	+6
19	+10	+6
20	+11	+6

In this table, the poor saving throw is the same as the standard third edition table. The good saving throw is slightly emasculated. From now on you only get +1 at first level instead of +2. But don’t panic, there’s slightly more to it than that.

The class you take at first level gains a special one-time bonus to its good saving throws. For example if Fighter is the class you take at first level, then you gain a special +1 bonus to your Fortitude saving throw. Anyone multiclassing into Fighter after first level doesn’t get that bonus. This preserves the necessary +2 bump to good saving throws at 1st level, but prevents anyone from getting that bump later on by multiclassing.

The rules should be obvious, but here are the bonuses that each of the eleven core classes (and the warlock, because I likes warlocks) get at 1st level:

Barbarian: +1 Fortitude
Bard: +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Cleric: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Druid: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Fighter: +1 Fortitude
Monk: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +1 Will
Paladin: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will
Ranger: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex
Rogue: +1 Reflex
Sorcerer: +1 Will
Warlock: +1 Will
Wizard: +1 Will

Characters who used the Version 3.0 rules for apprentice characters (and therefore have two classes at first level) must choose which of those two characters get the saving throw bonus. They can’t have both.

So how do these changes affect Elias – who has become the benchmark of all multiclassing in the game. Well, in terms of his base saving throws (not allowing for ability scores, inherent bonuses or magic items) this is how Elias works out in each of these three systems:

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +12, Reflex +6, Will +10
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +11, Reflex +6, Will +10
• New Rules: Either Fortitude +10, Reflex +5, Will +9 or Fortitude +9, Reflex +5, Will +10 (depending on how Marc assigns saving throw bonuses as an apprentice character)

In some respects, this isn’t a fair comparisson. Pathfinder makes Will a good saving throw for a paladin (which is something that third edition didn’t do). If that wasn’t the case then Elias’s Will save would have dropped to +7 in Pathfinder, and +6/+7 under the new rules.

Anyway – the results here are clear. The saves in Pathfinder are slightly worse than in 3.5, and my proposed amendments lower Elias’s saves still further. The question we face is whether this is a fair change or not. Personally, I believe it is. Compare Elias’s saving throws with a straight 16th level paladin (which is the nearest pure class to Elias’s multi-faceted nature). A single class paladin under Pathfinder would have saving throws of Fortitude +10, Reflex +5, Will +10. Stonkingly similar to the saving throws that years of multiclassing have given Elias.

But I don’t want Marc to feel as though I’m picking on Elias (I do enough of that in game). Let’s compare the old, new and would-be base saving throws of all the members of the Chosen of Narramac (and their hangers on) and see what happens. I have to say that I owe Marc an apology, Elias isn’t the character I should have been holding up as an example of over-twinkedness: it’s Syrah.

Arvan Walker-in-Shadows (Druid 11/Warshaper 4)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +11, Reflex +4, Will +8
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +9 Reflex +4, Will +8
• New Rules: Fortitude +10, Reflex +4, Will +8

Brack Ogrebane (Ranger 11/Fighter 3)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +10, Reflex +8, Will +4
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +10 Reflex +8, Will +4
• New Rules: Fortitude +9, Reflex +8, Will +4

Diablo Trent Cortez (Rogue 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster 7)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +4, Reflex +9, Will +9
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +4 Reflex +8, Will +8
• New Rules: Fortitude +4, Reflex +8, Will +7

Elias Raithbourne (Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1/Rogue 2/Paladin 5/Pious Templar 4/Glorious Servitor 3)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +12, Reflex +6, Will +10
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +11, Reflex +6, Will +10
• New Rules: Either Fortitude +10, Reflex +5, Will +9 or Fortitude +9, Reflex +5, Will +10 (depending on how Marc assigns saving throw bonuses as an apprentice character)

Nicos Tannesh (Cleric 10)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +7, Reflex +3, Will +7
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +7 Reflex +3, Will +7
• New Rules: Fortitude +7, Reflex +3, Will +7

Ravenna Malbraeve (Sorcerer 11/Fighter 1/Spellsword 3)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +8, Reflex +4, Will +10
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +7, Reflex +4, Will +9
• New Rules: Fortitude +6, Reflex +4, Will +9

Raza de Luna (Monk 15)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +9, Reflex +9, Will +9
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +9 Reflex +9, Will +9
• New Rules: Fortitude +9, Reflex +9, Will +9

Syrah Pendragon (Paladin 2/Ranger 2/Bloodhound 4/Dragon Shaman 1/ Dragon Devotee 5)

• D&D Version 3.5: Fortitude +16, Reflex +8, Will +4
• Pathfinder: Fortitude +13 Reflex +7, Will +8
• New Rules: Fortitude +12, Reflex +6, Will +6

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies

Thinking along the same lines as the above (but this time with no intention of picking on Marc) I want to look at weapon, armour and shield proficiencies. For the last eight years or so I have been using the rules for Weapon Group feats from the Unearthed Arcana. I still prefer that system, and I won’t be changing it any time soon.

In third edition all characters start with a number of bonus Weapon Group feats, Armour Proficiency Feats and Shield Proficiency feats. This reflects their mastery of arms and armour when they begin the game. This is all well and good, but the rules also state that anyone multiclassing into another core class automatically gets the same weapon and armour proficiencies on top of all the weapon and armour proficiences he already has.

That’s crazy. The rules as presented in the Pathfinder rulebook mean that a 1st level wizard who multiclasses into fighter at level two actually has more weapon proficiencies than a 2nd level fighter. We can’t be having that can we?

I have two thoughts here. We can say that these bonus weapon, armour and shield proficiency feats are only available at first level. After that multiclassing gets you nothing, and you have to buy any other such feat you want with one of your finite feat slots. That’s the easiest solution, and its the way prestige classes work.

The alternative, is that characters who multiclass into a core class gain some (but not all) of the weapon, armour and shield proficiency feats that a 1st level character in that class gained. For example, a 1st level fighter gains Basic Weapons + any four other Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Armour Proficiency (Heavy), Shield Proficiency and Tower Shield Proficiency. It’s quite a list. A character multiclassing into fighter after 1st level doesn’t gain all that, instead they gain one weapon group feat of their choice, and either one armour proficiency or one shield proficiency feat of their choice.

Here’s a summary of all the feats in tabular form:

Class	Bonus feats from 1st level	Bonus feats when multiclassing
Barbarian	Basic Weapons + any three other Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Shield Proficiency	One Weapon Group Feat, either Armour Proficiency (Light) or Armour Proficiency (Medium)
Bard	Basic Weapons + any two other Weapon Group feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Shield Proficiency	One Weapon Group Feat
Cleric	Basic Weapons + any two other Weapon Group feats (one of which must include deity’s favoured weapon), Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Shield Proficiency	The Weapon Group Feat that includes the deity’s favoured weapon, either Armour Proficiency (Light) or Armour Proficiency (Medium)
Druid	Basic Weapons + either Druid Weapons or Spears Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Shield Proficiency	Druid Weapons or Spears Weapon Group Feat, Armour Proficiency (Light) or Armour Proficiency (Medium)
Fighter	Basic Weapons + any four other Weapon Group feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Armour Proficiency (Heavy), Shield Proficiency, Tower Shield Proficiency	One Weapon Group Feat, either one Armour Proficiency Feat or one Shield Proficiency feat.
Monk	Basic Weapons + any one other Weapon Group feat.	None.
Paladin	Basic Weapons + any three other Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Armour Proficiency (Heavy), Shield Proficiency	One Weapon Group Feat, Either one Armour Proficiency feat, or Shield Proficiency.
Ranger	Basic Weapons + any three other Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light), Armour Proficiency (Medium), Shield Proficiency	One Weapon Group Feat, Armour Proficiency (Light) or Armour Proficiency (Medium)
Rogue	Basic Weapons + any two other Weapon Group Feats, Armour Proficiency (Light)	One Weapon Group Feat.
Sorcerer	Basic Weapons + either Spears or Crossbows Weapon Group Feats	None.
Warlock	Basic Weapons + one other Weapon Group Feat, Armour Proficiency (Light)	None.
Wizard	Either Basic Weapons or Crossbows Weapon Group Feat	None.

A multiclassing character still needs to be qualify for the feats he is selecting. So a character who multiclasses into barbarian can only select Armour Proficiency (Medium) if he already has the feat Armour Proficiency (Light). If a character already has the specified feat then they don’t get any other benefit. A Fighter multiclassing into barbarian would get knowledge of an additional weapon group feat, but wouldn’t get either armour proficiency because he already has both armour proficiencies.

I hope that these rules go a little way to balancing some of the insanity of the D&D multiclassing rules. As you will remember, one of my goals in HD&D was to make multiclassing equitable. Well, these rules don’t do this. They’re a patch, not a solution. However, I think they might eliminate some of the excesses of multiclassing whether intentional or unintentional – or at least postpone them for a few levels.